Subject: Upon finding out I had rejected Mormonism, inactive father asked me, "Why would you tear down a structure that has worked for you your entire life and risk replacing it with something less sound?"
Date: Feb 23 19:26
Author:Koriwhore
Mail Address:

At first when I heard that question it really pissed me off.

I thought the least he could do was to trust my judgement as an adult father, especially since he hadn't trusted in Mormonism since he was 18.

I told him that I felt compelled by my conscience to get myself and my family out because I could no longer defend having them indoctrinated with doctrines I found morally reprehensible and unethical.

He pointed at the TV and said, "Well then you're left with that to teach your children morals and values."

I told him that was crap, since he and my mother managed to raise 4 kids to adulthood with good morals and values, without religion.

He said that he just let us make decisions and learn from the consequences and that he wouldn't protect us from the consequences unless they were deadly.

I told him that was exactly my approach to raising kids.

He said, "Well, OK then."

That was one of the real upsides of leaving the Mormon church. It was one of the rare moments when I heard a word of approval from my father in 40 some odd years. For over 40 years he had never really told me what he thought about religion. I had always been left to assume that he was an atheist, since he trusted science and reason much more than anything else to answer life's mysteries.

But as it turned out my world view was more similar to his than I had ever imagined.

I told him that I always felt like it was important to articulate my world view to my children.

He said, "Stop it."

"Why?"

"You say too much."

"Well, I don't feel like you ever said enough. I mean, not to be critical of the way you raised us, because you did the best job you knew how, but you always told us that your main purpose in life was to leave behind better individuals than yourself and I don't resent anything about the way you raised us, but I just want to communicate with my children more. If you had communicated with me earlier about your religious views, then maybe it would have saved me about 20 years of being decieved and exploited by the fraudulent religious traditions I inheirited."

He said "I'm not sure you would have been better off."

"What? Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me right?"

"No. I'm not kidding. I think Mormonism did you a lot of good. I think that you wouldn't be the person you are today without Mormonism and you certainly wouldn't have the family you have today without Mormonism. Hopefully you're gratefull for that right?"

"Yeah. I am. And to be honest I don't really have a lot of regrets about my life, I just want my kids to be more aware of the fact that there are a lot of people out there trying to con and exploit them and religious leaders are no different."

He said, "Well, the only time they're listening is when they come and ask you. It's not your job to volunteer the advice, it's their job to ask you. So just keep it to yourself unless they ask. That's always been my approach. You never asked me in 40 years so I figured if you were not interested enough to ask then I'd just keep my advice to myself."

While I appreciate my father's stoic attitude, I still think that in this day and age, my generation is far more communicative and far less hung up about emotions and honest and open communication. Personally, I'll give my father his due and not criticize him for not communicating with me, since I don't have any regrets about my past, but I just want to be more honest and communicative with my children and future generations. I think its important to articulate your world view and leave it behind for others to benefit from your life's experiences and what your experiences have taught you.

Subject: WHY? Well, because you are no longer a child, don't believe in Santa and have graduated from grade school, high school
Date: Feb 23 19:49
Author:SusieQ#1
Mail Address:sllestodd@aol.com

and college and are now an adult?

The problem as I see it, with believers, in general, is that they are stuck and cannot conceive of evolving or changing.

I have no regrets. I too appreciate Mormonism in my life- grateful for all that I learned. It was not a waste. I have my family because of Mormonism.

I agree that it is important to articulate your willingness to change, to let your family know it is OK to change your mind, and to change your world view.

One of the most important things I learned as a Mormon was that a testimony, or beliefs could not ever be forced or demanded. That especially applies to our children.

It does not work to force a belief in Mormonism or anything else that requires faith to believe it. Children can be taught to parrot the answers the parents want, but eventually they refuse to do that.

What a great moment - to have clarity and a meaningful discussion with your father! Sounds like your father taught you to think for yourself!

Subject: Koriwhore, thanks for sharing, I have literally been obsessed about this very same thing for months...
Date: Feb 23 19:50
Author:Doubting Thomas
Mail Address:

I am a late 30's father of 4 (3 daughters). For some reason I have felt that I must liberate them from the evil clutches of mormondumb. The more I thought about it the more I have come to the conclusion that maybe it is better to take the course that your wise father did with you with just a twist.

I had to ask myself if everything went my way would my kids be happier during their childhood with me yanking them out after we are already so far down the path. I have decided that little by little I will offer up tidbits of information so they can beging to question or ask me questions on their own.

For instance just the other day my teenage daughter asked me something about the scriptures. I explained that I didn't necessarily agree with what the scripture said. I told her that it is hard for me to take things at face value in the scriptures when there are so many contradictions within. Sort of shocked she said she would just ask her mother then because her mother knows the scriptures.

I am convinced I will win my war one battle at a time. I try to create situations that enable my children to think or ask questions. I plant the seeds now and eventually they will ask about the bigger questions and we can have real "meaty" discussions.

The church is so whitewashed right now compared to when I was younger I don't see it as much of a threat to my children as many do here at this board. It's just a warm, happy fuzzy place to be with your friends and family to learn about Jesus.

I have already had to shatter the reality of Santa Claus I don't want them to have to take this one on quite yet.

I take it day by day and hope for the best.

Good luck.

DT

Subject: Hmmm. Interesting situation. I guess I would caution you however.....
Date: Feb 23 20:45
Author:Koriwhore
Mail Address:

I waited too long for my oldest son.

He was about 12 or 13 by the time I finally allowed myself to face the reality that Mormonism was a fraud, but I had a TBM wife who was threatening me with divorce if I breathed a word of my disbelief to our kids.

It took me another year or so to finally grow a set of balls after I explained to my son, honestly, what I believed. He said, "Well Dad, if that's really the way you feel, then why do you still pretend like you believe by going to church?"

I had to admit that I needed to be more honest and have the courage of my convictions.

That encouraged me to stand up to my TBM DW's ultimatums and tell her, "What's that about? If you came to me and said, "Hey babe, you know better than anybody that I've been strugling to resolve some doctrinal and historical problems with Mormonism for a long time and I've exhausted every "official" source so I've been doing a little of my own research. Now I've got even larger and more serious questions than the questions I started with and I just wanted to talk with you about how you'd look at these issues, I'd be all ears. I'd say, "Let's sit down together and study these things out together. If there is an answer, we'll find it together." But you tell me you want a divorce? What the hell is that about? That's not love! If you want out, then there's the door. What's stopping you? But don't blame it on me. I'm just trying to be the responsible parent in this relationship by researching real answers to real questions our kids are going to ask us. You don't have any answers and you're not even interested in providing the answers, you just want to keep indoctrinating our kids with bogus myths without even stopping to ever examine them."

That got her to quit issuing ultimatums at least. We really reached a tipping point at that point where our marriage was on the rocks over my disillusionment with religion. She was ready to go and I was ready to let her go if thats what she wanted. Fortunately she didn't really want that or she would have left me. She came around and we studied together. Once I started taking an interest in her "real" issues, (mainly polygamy, which has always rubbed her the wrong way and I think is an anathema to all mormon women) she took one look at the chart on JS's multiple wives in Todd Compton's ISL and said, "That's it. I'm done." And she was.

She was horrified once she realized that JS was REALLY a philandering, abusive, adulterer, con man and a serial pedophile. I think the real nail in the coffin for her was realizing that not only did JS cheat on his wife, he then turned around and made up this lame excuse for it contained in D&C 132, where he threatened her with destruction if she didn't condone his adultery. She was incensed about that.

So I had all of my family out, except my oldest son. He was a good Mormon boy. He was totally indoctrinated and totally emotionally attached to the Morg, moreso than he was to us. They had him. His whole life was planned out acccording to the prescribed Mormon plan of salvation and he was well on his way to being a Morgbot. He felt like we ripped the rug out from underneath him. It caused a hell of a lot of resentment in him. He asked me why I didn't bother to research this stuff before I raised him in the church to believe it was all true. But we trusted in his intelligence to figure it out on his own. He did finally, but he failed to really do the research to separate the good from the bad and instead figured it was all bad and when he fell, he fell hard. It's a long story and fortunately it's not over. But let's just say he took the hard way out. He won't be serving a mission for the Mormon church, but I suppose there are worse ways a 19 y.o. could spend 2 years of his life, of course there are also much better ways of spending it too. Hopefully he chooses one of those ways instead, but only time will tell. He's having a rough life at the moment. He's had to learn things the hard way. But we still love him and trust in his intelligence to learn the difficult lessons of life and learn how to succeed, without the false sense of security Mormonism provided for him.

Everybody's got to navigate their own way through life and determine their own destinies, to a certain extent, but fortunately we have good friends, family, and forums like these where we can benefit from the experiences of others.

One of the only letters my father ever wrote me was while I was on my mission 7,000 miles from home. He said in it, "We all have to build our own roads through life, with the stones of wisdom we aquire along the way through our experiences. We can either aquire the stones on our own or we can borrow them from the experiences of others, but ultimately, we all have to build the roads ourselves."

I'll always remember that lesson he taught me. That was one of the stones of wisdom I borrowed from a much wiser man than me.

Subject: BUT, for me, IT DIDN'T WORK! n/t
Date: Feb 23 19:58
Author:cl2
Mail Address:


Subject: Do you think your father thought he might be getting brownie points in heaven because his kids were good mormons?
Date: Feb 23 20:31
Author:Ether (Seattle)
Mail Address:

I know for sure that my mother thought because her kids were good mormon kids, she'd get credit for that in heaven. She really freaked when I left.

Subject: Joseph didn't die a martyr's death to enhance your life n/t
Date: Feb 23 20:42
Author:Pele Ale
Mail Address:pele_ale@yahoo.com

n/t