INTRODUCTION: MORMON LEADERS LET LOOSE THAT GOD'S REVEALED CHURCH ISN'T TOO FOCUSED ON REVELATION In another thread, "BYUBoy" noted that Gordon B. Hinckley admits that the Mormon Church of God isn't in need of much godly revelation: "Subject: 'We don't need much revelation'--Gordon B. Hinckley quote of the day Date: Nov 25 01:11 Author: BYUBoy Mail Address: harmonix321@gmail.com false "Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like? "A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received." (Interview with GBH by the San Francisco Chronicle in 1997) http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1164435087&newest=1164663493 _____ MORMON APOSTLES CONFESS THAT THE POST-JOSEPH SMITH MORMON CHURCH DOESN"T RELY ON MUCH NEW INFORMATION FROM GOD In a private, off-the-record meeting with LDS apostles Dalln Oaks and Neal Maxwell in September 1993 in Maxwell's office, both told Steve Benson that God doesn't often work nowadays through modern revelation for the modern Mormon Church. And when God does speak today to his Mormon prophet, He does it through a filter system--just in case the prophet might not otherwise get it: " . . . [Benson] asked what constitutes an official Mormon Church statement . . . "Maxwell replied by citing D&C 107, saying that 'we have a scriptural admonition that three High Priests preside over the Quorum of the Twelve.' "Maxwell said 'the more modern approach' to matters of Mormon doctrine are governed by the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, acting together as a body. "Maxwell asserted that once Joseph Smith had established the basic doctrines of the Church, then he was instructed by the Lord to call counselors. "After that, Maxwell said, Joseph Smith's role as unilaterally revealing doctrine was much more reduced. Maxwell summarized by telling us there are four levels of fundamental Church doctrine: "1. Those doctrines revealed by the prophet speaking alone; "2. Those doctrines revealed by the prophet in conjunction with his First Presidency counselors; "3. Those doctrines revealed in First Presidency statements, with the words of the First Presidency assuming 'a special status;' and "4. Those doctrines revealed by official declaration. "Oaks added that all of the basic Church doctrines were revealed by Joseph Smith early in the history of the Church. "He said that the more modern approach of Church governance has been, since the time of President Joseph F. Smith, to 'beseech his counselors in the First Presidency to help him, to watch over him, so that they could together make the right decisions that God wanted them to make.' ______ TODAY'S MORMON APOSTLES DON'T ALWAYS TRUST THE MORMON PROPHET TO CALL IT RIGHT--CASE IN POINT: THE ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE Benson wrote the following about the Oaks/Maxwell reaction to original doctrines announced by modern-day Mormon prophets that were subsequently abandoned as false doctrine: "By way of background, the 'Encyclopedia of Mormonism,' vol. 4, says only the following about the Adam-God doctrine: "'Brigham Young recognized that many people were not prepared to understand the mysteries of God and godhood. "I could tell you much more about this," he said, speaking of the role of ADAM, but checked himself, recognizing that the world would probably misinterpret his teaching.' ([Journal of Discourses 1:51], p. 1610, original emphasis) "A more forthright and honest definition of what actually constituted Young's teachings on Adam-God was provided by LDS apologist Van Hale, in a 1986 pamphlet, entitled 'What About the Adam-God Theory?' Hale acknowledged that Brigham Young 'had taught a concept which generally has not been accepted by Mormons--namely, that God the Father, the Father of our spirits and the Father of Jesus [of both his body and his spirit], came to this earth, took upon himself mortality, and was known as Adam, the progenitor of the human family. Simply stated, according to President Young, God the Father became Adam.' [Journal of Discourses 1:50], p. 1) "Maxwell told [Benson], "Adam-God was wrong." "Oaks said that the Mormon Church does not accept Adam-God as doctrine. "In response to [Benson's] observation that Brigham Young, in fact, taught it as doctrine, Oaks said that one can tell whether or not the matter deserves to be taught as doctrine by whether it is actually presented to the Church for approval--meaning, canonized and published as doctrine in the revelations of the Church. "This, Oaks noted, was not done with Adam-God. Rather, he said, 'It kind of petered out and didn't continue.' "Maxwell admitted that Adam-God was taught in Mormon temple ceremonies 'for a while.' Maxwell said that it was in the LDS temple where Young got some of his basis for it. However, Maxwell emphasized, Adam-God did not continue or 'persist as a doctrine that is taught today.' "Oaks and Maxwell then attempted to put Brigham Young's Adam-God teachings in perspective. They said he was a relatively young prophet when he made his statements on Adam-God. "They said they wished Young had had the benefit of 'a couple of good counselors to help him with some of the things he was saying.' "Maxwell repeated a common maxim used among the Mormon faithful: 'A prophet is not always a prophet. He is only a prophet when he speaks as such.' _____ MODERN-DAY MISINTERPRETATION OF MODERN-DAY REVELATION: ALLEGED MISQUOTING OF SMITH ON MORMONS AND MOONMEN "Maxwell then offered some speculation. "Maybe Joseph Smith, he said, at the end of a very tiring day, was sitting around in a social setting when someone asked, 'Where are the Lost Ten Tribes?' "Maxwell said he could envision Joseph pointing up and saying, 'On the moon.' Maxwell continued by suggesting, 'Someone goes home and writes it down in their diary. Decades or years later someone discovers the diary and a spin is put on it not originally intended by Joseph Smith.'" _____ LDS APOSTLES ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN AWAY FALSE PROPHESIES OF THE LORD'S PROPHETS BY SAYING PROPHESYING ISN'T THEIR MAIN JOB In response to Benson pointing out modern-day Mormon prophet prophecies that later turned out to be false (such as Smith's prediction that a temple would be erected in Missouri before those living in Smith's generation died; Brigham Young's declarations that the United States would not survive the Civil War, that Blacks would not receive the priesthood until the remainder of Adam's posterity had been given the opportunity to hear the Gospel and that the Sun was inhabited by intelligent beings; as well as the false prophesy that Lorenzo Snow would be sent to proselytize extra-terrestrials while still in the flesh), Oaks offered the follwing explanation: "'[W]e shouldn't be citing fulfilled prophecies because prophesying is only a minor aspect of what a prophet does.' "Oaks said that, in actuality, the fundamental role of a prophet is 'to testify of Christ.' He said that 'foretelling events' is a prophet's "minor responsibility.' "Maxwell said that Church members 'shouldn't use fulfilled prophecies to keep box scores.' "He added, 'We've never had a perfect Prophet or a perfect General Authority.' "When [Benson] pointed out Joseph Smith's failed prediction of a temple being built in Missouri before those living in Smith's generation would pass away, Maxwell commented with a laugh, 'Maybe there was too much foretelling and not enough testifying.' "Oaks observed, 'Prophecies are for private use and private application, more than they are for general Church application.' "[Benson] asked if it was not problematic for a Church to be led by prophets who are making frequent mistakes in their prophesying. "Oaks replied, 'In total, there aren't that many mistakes that have been made.' Of 5,000 prophecies, he said, 'only five haven't been fulfilled.' He then added, 'But we shouldn't be keeping track, anyway.' "Maxwell noted that according to one scripture, even Jesus was said not to know when the Second Coming is scheduled, so, Maxwell said, 'no one really knows' and 'everyone could be mistaken.' "The bottom line, Maxwell declared, is that 'it is our duty to be loyal to the prophet.' "He said that he disagreed politically with Ezra Taft Benson 'on certain things' but felt he could always follow him in good conscience when, as prophet, President Benson was emphasizing a particular aspect of the Gospel. "Oaks agreed--but with a condition. Oaks vowed he would 'march from sunup to sundown' in following the prophet on a particular teaching but said 'if the prophet was to come out and say that we are no longer going to preach the Book of Mormon as true,' he "would look around for an affirmation of that by the Quorum of the Twelve.' [Benson] asked how one could determine whether a prophet was speaking truthfully. Oaks and Maxwell replied that what the prophet says must be in compliance with the Standard Works of the Church. "In response, [Benson] asked if the Standard Works of the Church are to be the ultimate guide, then what would be the use of a living prophet, since both Brigham Young and Ezra Taft Benson declared that the words of the living prophet took precedence over the Standard Works. "Oaks and Maxwell replied that the prophet can preach on a wide variety of subjects." _____ CONCLUSION: THUS SAITH THE LORD* (*CERTAIN RESTRICTIONS APPLY) According to the secret confessions of two modern-day Mormon apostles, Dallin Oaks and Neal Maxwell, the following is actually the truth about the mechanics of Mormon prophesying: --Joseph Smith laid down most of Mormon doctrine, so there hasn't been much need for new revelation since then. --Some of what Smith declared to be divinely-inspired prophesy was, in fact, false. --Other prophetic utterances that of Smith that turned out not to be true have been falsely attributed to him. --Mormons shouldn't be keeping track of the number of false prophecies actually made by God's prophets. --Prophesying is only a minor role for modern-day Mormon prophets. --Since Mormon prophets have been known to prophesy falsely and with youthful, inadequate experience, they are in critical need of good counselors to help keep them from making anti-prophetic mistakes. --Mormon apostles who don't agree with the directions given by the head Mormon prophet say they can out-vote the prophet via a majority opinion of the Quorum of Twelve. http://twincentral.com/site/pages/articles/doctrines/alt/LDS/stevebenson.htm Parts 6 and 14 |
Subject: | ahhhh yes can't have a prophet with."Egg on their face" |
Date: | Nov 27 19:21 |
Author: | SusieQ#1 |
Mail Address: | sllestodd@aol.com |
saying something that later sounds really stupid or dumb , or turns out to be unscientific, or disproven by facts! Big job being a prophet. Have to be careful what they say! Best not to say much of anything an stick to their party line very carefully! And, shame on the members for keeping track! |
Subject: | nt |
Date: | Nov 27 21:09 |
Author: | topped |
Mail Address: |
Subject: | They need to rewrite that hymn. We Thank Thee Oh God For A Prophet... |
Date: | Nov 27 21:17 |
Author: | Timmy Teaboy |
Mail Address: |
It should be: "We thank thee, oh God, For that person who outlived all of his peers and became sustained as a prophet, Who can appoint counselors and preside over committee meetings to determine what should be official church policy from fiscal year to fiscal year, And who can say things in General Conference that may or may not be true, but that will be sincerely expressed and...." Well, you get the point. Truth in advertising seems to require such changes to that popular hymn, but I realize the new words won't be as catchy as the old, outdated ones. |
Subject: | nt |
Date: | Nov 28 11:54 |
Author: | topper |
Mail Address: |